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[OldBean]

Hi all,

Have owned a 454 (2004 semi-auto 1.3) for 3 years, which recently lost its gears, so is SORNed to repair it on the drive.

Fortune smiled on me and I managed to pick up a replacement 454 for peanuts (2006 manual 1.5) locally so am driving that at the mo (had the flashing fuel gauge fault which I've just fixed this morning, mileage is high but bodywork is fantastic).

Whilst emptying out my old 454 I accidentally drained the battery, then foolishly tried to crank it up anyway hoping to get the alternator to do the charging for me. It failed, and killed the battery in the process. Lesson learned (probably).

I've since put in another known good battery, however the old 454 now does not turn over at all.

With the key in the "On" position I can hear the throttle motor making its characteristic whining noise from under the bonnet.
When turning the key to the "Start" position I hear the fuel pump activate (from under the rear seats), but no sound at all from the starter - no clicks, no nuffink.
When turning the key back to the "Lock" position I hear a relay (engine relay?) de-activate (from the fuse&relay box area) after about 8 seconds as usual.

I've checked the ignition and engine relays are all working (swapped out with lo-beam relay), and checked continuity on every single fuse in the box. I have a large pile of interior plastics in the back seat as a consequence of gaining access ot the fiddlier ones, but I have at least ruled out a blown fuse or relay in the ignition path.

I've checked the starter motor/solenoid functions in situ by putting the key to the "On" position and briefly jumpering between battery + to the signal post, and it fired up and ran happily.

The nearest wiring diagrams I've been able to find (Mitsubishi Colt 2006 w/m) suggest that there isn't anything else in the ignition path except the ignition lock cylinder/switch mechanism itself and physical wiring wires.

Next to check is continuity of the wiring between the ignition and starter signal post I suppose.

Any help/suggestions/insights would be appreciated.

Best regards


Rich

[OldBean]

A couple of points to note on differences between my 2004 and 2006 models. Doesn't seem worth starting another thread about it, but worth noting nevertheless...

 - 2004 model - ECU is in the engine bay
 - 2006 model - ECU is under the passenger seat

 - 2004 model - Access to remove fuel pump from within vehicle. A circular removable panel is located below the rear seats.
 - 2006 model - No access to remove fuel pump from within vehicle. The *shape* of the removable panel is, however, embossed in the steel below the rear seats.

The 2004 model has a circular panel giving access to remove fuel pump is under the rear seats, as noted on this forum and elsewhere.
The 2006 model only has 2 small plastic covers, presumably to give double-jointed-dwarf access to remove the fuel line, degassing line, and wiring harness connector beneath rear seats. Removing the fuel pump requires removing the fuel tank from the vehicle.

A plastic threaded ring seals the fuel pump to the tank. It is possible to remove via the access hole provided on the 2004 model, but attempting to rotate this ring using a hammer and a screwdriver (a la Youtube vids) are most likely to result in bits of broken plastic tabs pinging around your vehicle.
A suitable tool for the job can be fashioned in about 5 minutes using an angle grinder to cut 12 1" long slots into one end of a 6" flue pipe or similar. A wrench (or small bench vice) can be used to grip the top of the flue pipe and give leverage to rotate it.

[454_1.1_55_2004]

You should check this topic
https://www.forfour.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7248.0;topicseen
Maybe it will help.

[OldBean]

Thanks for the reply. Didn't realise the extra forums existed as I'd been browsing logged out until posting

From what I have read (hesitant to correct the gurus) the 454 does not use a transponder key, just a remote immobiliser/lock which rules out that suggestion (although I have tested both keys anyway, both of which worked before).

There are no error codes stored or pending. My reader is crappy and probably wouldn't tell me about dead ecu though, however since the engine runs fine once started using a jumper cable that would suggest to me that the ECU is not dead, and would therefore store/show DTCs were any generated (bit of an assumption).

The battery starts my other forfour (and a Citroen C2 I made the mistake of buying as a temporary runabout) just fine, but I gave it an extra charge for a couple of hours just to be certain: no change.

I've also tried the key again since running the engine test (just in case it was previously in a bad sensor position/locked up) and no change.

Going to test ignition signal voltage next, see if I can chase down what is happening to the ignition signal.
It just means a) digging out the relevant terminal pin assignments from the wiring diagrams, and b) having a second person on hand to turn the key.

I'm wondering whether my low-charge-state cranking has led to a ignition signal wire burnout (if the starter solenoid was not operating (due to low voltage) might that have let the signal short to ground for an extended period via the un-/under-energised solenoid?).

PS - mods feel free to move this to the appropriate forum with my blessing and thanks (Electrics in General/Engine and exhaust, take your pick) - I wasn't aware of the existence of the member-only forums which are invisible to non-logged in users.

[El Tel]

If all else fails you could install a push button starter?

[CrazyG]

I would suggest that there would appear to be the likelihood that the coding of the
car to both keyfobs has been 'wiped' or reverted to a default setting if neither of them
will start the engine.

It is not unknown to anyone who deals with electrics that even the slightest arching or
surge in power can cause unwarranted electrical issues including the 're-alignment'
or resetting of values in certain equipment, or even the deletion of data.
If as you say you have 'bypassed' the exisiting electrics and directly jump started the
engine with success, then I would hazard that the coding in the ECU to the keyfobs
has been 'lost' or reset.  That being the case it will need to be reset via the MB Star
diagnostics machine....preferably at a Smart Independant who's charge will be
under half what an MB dealer will want.

HOWEVER....I would strongly suggest that you talk to someone like Rob at S2Smarts
for his advice based on his considerable experience to see what he thinks and has to say.

[mr singh]

can you change your location to somewhere that is more 'location' specific. Yorkshire is a pretty big county if you take in to account North, South, West and East Yorkshire.

[CrazyG]

Kingston-upon-hull area....is about as specific as it can be.
PM (Private Messaging) is the best way to ask/give more specific info. 

[jmariog]

Coming from a lack of knowledge, 1) does not a picture of a key come up if it is not talking to the ECU ?  And 2) is there not a fuse on the positive terminal block that could have blown ?

[CrazyG]

Ahhh...point number 2...well spotted jmariog....
that had slipped my mind, and it is worth checking for continuity across
the fuse links on that big chunky fuse block that clamps onto the battery
positive post.

If they're all ok, then it's back to the keyfob being de-synchronised methinks...
or perhaps a bad earth cable/connection from the engine to the chassis ?