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Author Topic: Hypothetical  (Read 28614 times)

Fritz

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Hypothetical
« on: November 17, 2015, 11:25:59 PM »

As second hand For fours in OZ are cheap  about $10,000 - $11,000   for a BRABUS. Would it be possible to convert a one to an AMT ?
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Alex

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2015, 07:27:32 AM »

Not really no, at least not with the OEM parts from an AMT and a BRAB. Even if they'd link mechanically, you'd need some aftermarket piggyback or clever software engineering to run the AMT in a brabus chassis or vice-versa. Then it would just be a matter of reliability.

CrazyG would be the most qualified to answer on this though, in regards to TORQUE and POWER vs AMT, having a tuned CDI AMT.
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CrazyG

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2015, 12:37:34 PM »

The problem's involved with such a conversion are many fold, and they
are all to a degree interrelated.

1/ the AMT itself
2/ the amount of BHP+torque available from even a standard Brabus.
3/ The ECU

The AMT copes admirably with 95hp and even a bit higher, but it has
major weaknesses for anyone considering tuning/modifing.
The main issue is the actuator...
This works fine for a standard engine, and just about copes with a
slight increase (as in a CDi remap), but it has issues of it's own.
These are:-
(a) the drive motor cannot cope with an uprated clutch that uses
     a cover plate or driven plate with anything other than standard
     rated pressure. That rules out the Brab clutch.
(b) it is slow in what it does. Perfectly adequate for normal motoring,
      but definitely not good enough for any 'power' mods.
(c) it can break (the motor shaft). If that goes you cannot buy just the motor
     drive unit of the actuator, so it is expensive to replace.

I did extensive searching and investigating to see if there was an uprated
actuator available, and found just 1. However, more indepth checking
found that the 'uprating' consisted solely of replacing the internal
spring with a stronger one, but no change of motor ! I then found
and read that the outcome of this mod was that the motor either
burnt out or snapped the drive shaft due to the increased load on it !
So that ruled that one out.
So then I search for an 'uprated' motor drive unit, as there were the
odd rumours that a Citroen used a similar unit. But alas....no one
makes a 'compatible' higher power version that can fit or be made
to fit the casing of the actuator. So the searching ended.

So, what with that and the fact that the Brab has more power available,
crosses off 2 of the 3 main points, and it sort of puts the brakes on the
whole idea of this conversion, but it still leaves the one big issue
that would have to be overcome even if one could get round the actuator
problem, and that is......

The standard ECU (from a 1.5 petrol non turbo AMT), would require
extensive investigating to see if it could be made to work with the Brab
turbo conversion, or the Brab ECU work with the AMT.  Now that would
take a serious amount of time + money for a professional mapper to do.
TBH, a stand alone ECU would be the only answer, but I'm not sure
anyone does one that caters for the likes of an AMT. And there's the crux
of this....it wouldn't matter if it were/had a 'normal' fluid type auto gearbox.
As to the cost of going 'standalone'....the S2Racing Brab is heading for
'standalone country' (as will possibly Wangswong), and the cost of
going that route.. just a ball park figure....is looking between £1.5k to £2k) !
And that's for manual transmission. So I think that finally closes the door
on any idea or thought of a Brab engined AMT conversion.


There is of course one possibility open....
The grafting of a complete non-Smart engine with it's associated fluid
type auto box into a ForFour (complete with ECU and wiring loom etc).
So, who has the inclination (as well as time and money) to be bold
enough to tackle that ? (and to pay the specialist insurance on it !)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 12:04:29 PM by CrazyG »
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454 - Brabus (mapped, Willwood brakes, coilovers etc)
454 - Passion CDi 95hp (manual, Brab body kit, coilovers etc)
454 - Passion 1.3 (manual, Brab body kit, lowered etc) [SORN'd]
451 - Pulse Turbo [my daily drive] (mapped, coilovers etc)
450 - 'Widestar' bodied Passion 700cc [SORN'd]

mr singh

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2015, 09:44:32 PM »

Basically its not going to happen due to the extensive costs involved. Best just stick to your 1.5 petrol or get a diesel and map it
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Fortwo MK3 (2007-2010) Top speed 85 MPH. maxed* 98 MPH
Forfour 1.1 (2010-2015) Top speed 103 MPH. maxed* 110 MPH
Forfour 1.5 SB3 (2015>) Top speed 118 MPH. maxed* 122 MPH
Jaguar XF S 3.0TDV6 (11/21-06/22) never to be maxed
Jaguar XF S 3.0TDV6 (07/22>) Top speed 155MPH

*maxed in Germany

Fritz

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2015, 02:44:33 AM »

It was just a thought bubble & no such thing as a diesel down here in OZ
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Problemchild

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2015, 05:35:18 PM »

learn to drive stick :)

don't think they do czt autos

JJ

Fritz

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2015, 08:47:20 PM »

Sorry I don't understand :(  "to drive stick" ???
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Problemchild

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2015, 09:16:30 PM »

manual = stick

JJ

mr singh

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2015, 09:38:41 PM »

Its american terminology. The Americans call manuals a stick shift... Even though the auto could be considered a 'stick shift' as you shift using a 'stick' from park to drive/reverse/neutral, unless you have a jaguar with the rotary gear selector.
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Fortwo MK3 (2007-2010) Top speed 85 MPH. maxed* 98 MPH
Forfour 1.1 (2010-2015) Top speed 103 MPH. maxed* 110 MPH
Forfour 1.5 SB3 (2015>) Top speed 118 MPH. maxed* 122 MPH
Jaguar XF S 3.0TDV6 (11/21-06/22) never to be maxed
Jaguar XF S 3.0TDV6 (07/22>) Top speed 155MPH

*maxed in Germany

Problemchild

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2015, 11:13:36 PM »

you use the stick to shift the gears

you don't select any gears in auto   :P

JJ

mr singh

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2015, 07:27:57 AM »

but thats where your wrong... you use a stick to shift from P to D or R  ;D
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Fortwo MK3 (2007-2010) Top speed 85 MPH. maxed* 98 MPH
Forfour 1.1 (2010-2015) Top speed 103 MPH. maxed* 110 MPH
Forfour 1.5 SB3 (2015>) Top speed 118 MPH. maxed* 122 MPH
Jaguar XF S 3.0TDV6 (11/21-06/22) never to be maxed
Jaguar XF S 3.0TDV6 (07/22>) Top speed 155MPH

*maxed in Germany

Brabs

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2015, 09:03:45 AM »

Well, to be pedantic, as I understand it the 'stick' doesn't select the gear but instructs (in the case of the forfour AMT for example) the electronics which control the actuator to select the gear(s). :)
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CrazyG

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2015, 12:01:04 PM »

Now before anyone adds any further comment, JJ used American terminology.
So let's 'put this one to bed' now, ok....

The term 'stick shift' is; as has already been stated; an American term
that has been around more or less since the car arrived or was built in
America. They had no need of gears back then, so everything was more
or less an automatic....or 'slush box' as they became known, due to there
being fluid 'slushing' around inside them. And they had a selector that
one used to select either D, N, or R, as they were the only options at the time.

So, when America got cars imported and/or eventually made their own cars
for enthusiasts/racers with gears, they invariably had a long thin gear stick to
engage the gears with, so they shortned/changed the British sounding
'gear stick' to 'stick shift'.
(Maybe they shy'd away from the word/term manual as there are guy's call
  Manuel, or Manual in their part of the world....just a thought....)

For almost all the rest of the world, transmission's were known as either
Manual or Auto. (Even 'pre-select' gearboxes were known as manuals back
then as there were no fluids involved.)

As for today....
Now this is where it get's confusing.....sort of....
the latest raft of hi-end auto cars hitting our streets no longer have a 'selector',
rather a fancy do everything dial/knob. The lower market models still have a
selector lever, but for how much longer....but both still operate what is to all
intents and purposes a 'slush box'. (as per American terminology).
As for manual's....many still have a gear stick, albeit stubbier and maybe thicker,
but inherently they're still a 'stick shift'. However, we now see both manual's and
auto's that have been arriving on the scene that select gears or modes via floppy
steering wheel paddles or buttons.
Note that I use the word selector here, not shift or shifter, as these paddles
operate fancy electronics that select the gear (for the manual which retains
a clutch) or mode (for the auto, which does not have a clutch).


Well...now that I've raised a right little hornets nest with my interpretation of
JJ's comment.....as well as having gone completely off the topic of the thread  :o
So what say we start a new thread/topic on this if anyone wants to make
or consider adding any comment ?  If so.........
start a new topic in the Natterjack's Chat section, ok.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 12:06:14 PM by CrazyG »
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454 - Brabus (mapped, Willwood brakes, coilovers etc)
454 - Passion CDi 95hp (manual, Brab body kit, coilovers etc)
454 - Passion 1.3 (manual, Brab body kit, lowered etc) [SORN'd]
451 - Pulse Turbo [my daily drive] (mapped, coilovers etc)
450 - 'Widestar' bodied Passion 700cc [SORN'd]

mr singh

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2015, 08:35:23 PM »

I was only teasing... I know what JJ was talking about
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Fortwo MK3 (2007-2010) Top speed 85 MPH. maxed* 98 MPH
Forfour 1.1 (2010-2015) Top speed 103 MPH. maxed* 110 MPH
Forfour 1.5 SB3 (2015>) Top speed 118 MPH. maxed* 122 MPH
Jaguar XF S 3.0TDV6 (11/21-06/22) never to be maxed
Jaguar XF S 3.0TDV6 (07/22>) Top speed 155MPH

*maxed in Germany

Fritz

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Re: Hypothetical
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2015, 09:15:53 PM »

Thanks for that, I now understand 👍🏻 Started my driving live with a manual then live intervened ( car accident 1971) result spinal injury so now can only drive an auto or  AMT. This is why I wish MB had made the BRABUS with an AMT 😊
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G'Day from the land of floods, Fires, things that bite & very happy people.
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